Re: Navigation by the stars and the Pers

Msg # 6996 of 7002 on RelayNet Navy Discussion
To: ALL, From: JACK LINTHICUM Time: Wednesday, 8-15-7, 4:51
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On Aug 15, 3:23 pm, "Andrew Chaplin"
 wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum"  wrote in message
>
> news:1187199070.046162.233260@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 15, 12:27 pm, Weatherlawyer  wrote:
> >> On Aug 15, 4:18 pm, Jack Linthicum 
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > On Aug 15, 11:04 am, eugene@dynagen..co..za (Eugene Griessel) wrote:
>
> >> > > "Arved Sandstrom"  wrote:
> >> > > >"Eugene Griessel"  wrote in message
> >> > > >news:46c28c67.474991@news.uunet.co.za...
> >> > > >> "Arved Sandstrom"  wrote:
>
> >> > > >>>"Eugene Griessel"  wrote in message
> >> > > >>>news:46c05948.12846078@news.uunet.co.za...
> >> > > >>>> Jack Linthicum  wrote:
>
> >> > > >>>>>This is sort of fun, I get the classisists in one newsgroup t=
hat
> >> > > >>>>>say
> >> > > >>>>>the ships went from point to point in daylight and never did
> >> > > >>>>>anything
> >> > > >>>>>else except by accident. I get the pragmatists in this group =
who
> >> > > >>>>>contend that you have to prove that travel at night was neces=
sary.
> >> > > >>>>>The
> >> > > >>>>>Homeric example: "The only night voyages willingly undertaken=
 are
> >> > > >>>>>those of Telemachus to Pylos and return."
>
> >> > > >>>> It is always difficult extrapolating what the ancients might =
have
> >> > > >>>> done
> >> > > >>>> in view of what we might do today.  It is also difficult to k=
now
> >> > > >>>> what
> >> > > >>>> methodologies of navigation they might have evolved.
>
> >> > > >>>> However in the colonisation of Crete example it is logical to
> >> > > >>>> assume
> >> > > >>>> that this would be an evolutionary process.  First the
> >> > > >>>> colonisation of
> >> > > >>>> Rhodes, then Karpathos and then Kassos.  Each clearly visible=
 from
> >> > > >>>> the
> >> > > >>>> other.  Then Crete, clearly visible from Kassos.  Nobody in h=
is
> >> > > >>>> right
> >> > > >>>> mind is going to strike out into the blue in the vague hope of
> >> > > >>>> finding
> >> > > >>>> something out there.
>
> >> > > >>>Then none of them were in their right minds, because obviously =
just
> >> > > >>>that
> >> > > >>>has
> >> > > >>>been done, and quite often. As you suggested in a previous post=
 in
> >> > > >>>this
> >> > > >>>thread, population pressure and warfare can be a powerful influ=
ence
> >> > > >>>in
> >> > > >>>just
> >> > > >>>deciding to strike out.
>
> >> > > >> Cite for neolithic man sailing off into the blue?
>
> >> > > >Depends on how far back you want to go, Eugene. It seems to me th=
at if
> >> > > >modern man of two or three thousand years ago was enthusiastically
> >> > > >waging
> >> > > >large scale war at sea, and it's also clear that extensive parts =
of
> >> > > >the
> >> > > >planet were populated by sea, neolithic man probbaly was also abl=
e to
> >> > > >sail
> >> > > >long distances.
>
> >> > > Indubitably - however we do know that large ships were being built
> >> > > 5000 years ago, capable of blue water sailing even if maybe not us=
ed
> >> > > as such,  but we do not know if such ships existed 10000 years ago.
>
> >> > > We even have a beautiful sample of a 4600 year old ship sitting at
> >> > > Giza which showed much evolution in the design.
>
> >> > > There is a vast difference beteen Columbus sailing off into the bl=
ue
> >> > > on a crazy hypothesis that the world was round and Ug and Thug with
> >> > > their hand-paddled log doing likewise.  The latter two would have =
to
> >> > > evolve their vessel into something that would carry enough provisi=
ons
> >> > > to make an extended trip possible and experience enough to know ho=
w to
> >> > > get back should they not make landfall.  Very few people don't have
> >> > > enough survival instinct to deliberately strike off into the wild =
blue
> >> > > yonder without some hope of returning should things not work out!
>
> >> > > Eugene L Griessel
>
> >> > >    Don't use a big word where a diminutive one will suffice.
>
> >> > That ship was made with 50 tons of Lebanon cedar, you have to
> >> > consider that those logs were not floated down from Byblos on their
> >> > own but were cargo. Suggesting large sea-going ships. The description
> >> > in Richard Steff's Wooden Ship Building, etc. says the ship
> >> > construction suggests generations of  development. An inscription on
> >> > the Palermo stone hints at the size of the imports, one instance of
> >> > forty shiploads of cedar from Lebanon and another of a ship larger
> >> > than this one being built for the king.
>
> >> >http://www.narmer.pl/main/palermo_en.htm
>
> >> I am not sure that this is in reference to American cedar, but I read
> >> a while back in a book I no longer have, that with Victorian timber
> >> felling techniques, cedar was considered an inferior timber.
>
> >> However using techniques that the Lebanese seem to have developed and
> >> kept to themselves, the timber was esteemed as the one of choice for
> >> the finest tabernacles, temples and palaces.
>
> >> Since I don't know what those techniques were, or are and since the
> >> timber is not widely available as such these days, one might imagine
> >> that the lore was lost and that the timber is still considered low
> >> grade.
>
> >> Which speaks volumes for evolution, if not for the construction
> >> industry.
>
> > The earliest ship builders carved planks out of much larger blanks,
> > later when the quality of timber diminished the planks were sawn out
> > of the basic blank or log. The Cheops ship, which is the one Eugene
> > cited, was built by laying the planks on a rough frame work and sewing
> > the plants together. This made for a very flexible craft that then
> > needed cables to tie it together so the flexing would not tear the
> > boat apart.
>
> > "The Lebanese cedar is a very large tree, which  is straight-grained
> > making it a very good timber to work. It has a pinkish-brown colour,
> > is durable, aromatic and takes a polish well. The care in which the
> > timber was felled, so preventing the possibility of splits being
> > impacted into the grain. is seen in a relief found on the northern
> > exterior wall of the hypostyle hall in the great Temple of Amun-Re at
> > Karnak. Woodcutters are shown felling a tall Lebanese cedar. One man
> > is using an axe at the base of the trunk while two others are holding
> > the tree with ropes which have been tied to the uppermost branches.
> > This allowed more control over the speed and direction of the tree's
> > fall. Egyptians also ventured to lands south of Egypt where they
> > felled hardwood timbers such as African ebony.
>
> > Ship yard records show that planks of cedar could measure up to an
> > impressive 55 feet in length. To obtain planks of this length perhaps
> > indicates that the tree would have been converted by horizontal
> > sawing. However, there is no visual or textual evidence to suggest
> > that this process was used in Ancient Egypt and is considered to be a
> > Roman development. We do have visual evidence that long planks were
> > cleaved from the trunk in a scene from Iteti's tomb at Dishasha. An
> > experienced craftsman could split a trunk of straight grain growth
> > following the grain, usually down the trees rays, through its
> > weaknesses and irregularities. However, the majority of tomb scenes,
> > such as in Rekhmira's tomb, show that timber conversion was achieved
> > by saw with the log being bound with rope to a vertical post.
> > Therefore, accurately sawn planks were normally not greater in length
> > than the height of the sawyer. During the Middle Kingdom, carpenters
> > squatted in the shade of their workshop walls. However, New Kingdom
> > carpenters were allowed to sit on three legged stools and work at a
> > wooden bench with a specially rebated front edge which acted as his
> > vice.
>
> > Early Dynastic carpenters used a wide range of copper woodworking
> > tools; a fine collection was discovered by Professor W.B. Emery in S
> > 3471 at Saqqara. He discovered a number of copper saws, adze blades,
> > awls, mortise and firmer chisels. Saws developed from the knife and
> > were between 251 mm and 400 mm in length. In profile they have curved
> > edges with a round blunt nose and a rib along the centre of the blade
> > which extends into a tang which locates in a wooden handle. Along one
> > edge are closely spaced teeth which are nibbled out and are irregular
> > in both shape and pitch. Each tooth was pressed over in the same
> > direction which provides an unusual "set" not like that on a modern
> > saw where each tooth is "set" alternatively to the left and right of
> > the blade. The conversion of timber from the trunk would have been
> > very difficult to achieve with these short saws. By the end of the Old
> > Kingdom we see carpenters using a new type of saw. The pull saw was
> > used exclusively to convert "green" timber by ripping down the long
> > grain. It was a longer saw, its teeth pointed towards its integral
> > metal handle. It has a straight back with a pointed nose and was used
> > with both hands, the sawyer pulled it down through the timber which
> > had been tied to a vertical post. The size of the teeth were larger
> > and the pitch greater which made it an efficient saw to rip down
> > timber.
>
> > The adze was a very versatile tools being used to true and s
>
> >http://www.geocities.com/gpkillen/materials.htm
>
> I went through the Lebanon mountains quite a bit in 1992-'93. AFAICT, the=
 old
> growth Lebanese cedar was nearly gone, with surviving specimens having the
> status of curiosities, e.g. the tree at Bcharr=E9 on which the poet Lamar=
tine
> carved his initials. My sylvan ideals are shaped by my Canadian origins, =
but I
> did not see a stand of cedars in Lebanon that would qualify as a "wood" l=
et
> alone a "forest"; many cedars stood as individuals and were on maps as
> landmarks.
>
> "I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...."
> --
> Andrew Chaplin
> SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Have you seen Southeastern Alaska lately? And I would expect BC is no
better.

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